Welcome to ISA - (intelligent speed assistance limiter) - UK to follow EU adoption on new cars - great new safety measure or Big Brother ?

[lol-lol]

Welcome to ISA  - (intelligent speed assistance limiter) - UK to follow EU adoption on new cars.

 

Like with the road tax changes will this make second hand cars more valuable ?

 

At present looks motorcycles are excluded but suspect it is only a matter of time.

 

Big Brother society ?

 

Might people de-restrict saying they drive to Germany etc but it sounds like the system might be clever enough to upload the local speed limit at a country level, urban, country side etc by the sounds of it.

 

Progress you are happy with ?

 

What if one is doing an overtake and the system intercedes and put your life in danger ?

 

[chimaera]

Is any government willing to take on the legal responsibility for the situations where it malfunctions or restricts speed inappropriately? Because if they take control away from the driver, that's what they're committing to.

[Ootohere]

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/495705-mandatory-requirement-on-new-cars-from-2022-speed-limiers

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/489549-speed-i-items-to-be-fitted-to-all-new-cars-by-2022

 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/488677-how-did-cars-end-up-with-so-much-tech-fitted

 

 

Edited 12 August, 2021 by e-Roottoot

[xman]

1 hour ago, lol-lol said:

Welcome to ISA  - (intelligent speed assistance limiter) - UK to follow EU adoption on new cars.

 

Isn't that what you wanted?  You spent a long time arguing thats what we must do to avoid catastrophe.

 

59 minutes ago, chimaera said:

Is any government willing to take on the legal responsibility for the situations where it malfunctions or restricts speed inappropriately? Because if they take control away from the driver, that's what they're committing to.

 

So if I break down on a motorway I can sue the government?

[lol-lol]

9 hours ago, xman said:

Isn't that what you wanted?  You spent a long time arguing thats what we must do to avoid catastrophe.

So if I break down on a motorway I can sue the government?

 

I was definitely a Remainer and it is clear the Nissan in Sunderland, Toyota in Derby will make the cars to this spec and making the UK cars to this spec will add a bit of cost which will make for more expensive cars of course.  Most EU safety things have been great ie mandatory ABS and seat belt wearing with all the warning when the driver or passenger are not wearing their seat belts, all good.

 

I changed my mind about BREXIT when it started to feed so much extra revenue in to my company and our pay packets due to those thousands of extra customs entries ie  full bonus this year and 

now a whole months extra salary in December, kind of won me over.

 

We will see with this ISA stuff and hope much it might spoil driving but hopefully I will continue to have the option to use the motorcycle which, as with much of these regulations, takes several years more to usually get through to motorcycling.

 

If driving on the road increasingly become dull until we eventually have autonomous cars well that is the way it is going, then having a bit of fun will have to go on the race track which is arguably where it should be anyways.   Bike and car track days for fun, and then a respect for others bikers, car drivers, cyclist and pedestrians will happen due to the tech, inevitable.   

 

Maybe it might be set to limit plus 10% plus 2% like many speed cameras and then we can drive/set to drive at 79/80 mph on the motorways, Con government talked about doing this but again talk and no action.

 

Hopefully it will not disrupt our distribution of Aston and Mclarens as they will be going to customers who will not be effected or have ways round.  

 

[Ootohere]

New drivers will get in new cars from next year and all the new mandatory kit will just be what they grow used to.  As it is the UK NSL for passenger cars is 60 MPH, and max permissable on the roads with 70 limits is just that, same for motorbikes.   Plenty cars and vehicles pre 2022 type approval for those that do not want the latest stuff.    Taxed by miles driven or parked on public roads must come to the UK eventually but then it will be decades before the government's clear the roads of vehicles 

 registered up to 2021 no matter how they try pricing them off the roads, or by MOT,s being stricter.  Vehicles are on the roads nowbwith out of date airbags that might well not function. 

[skomaz]

1 hour ago, lol-lol said:

 

I changed my mind about BREXIT when it started to feed so much extra revenue in to my company and our pay packets due to those thousands of extra customs entries ie  full bonus this year and 

now a whole months extra salary in December, kind of won me over.

 

 

Blimey - you've changed your tune on Brexit???   never thought I'd hear that admission!

 

Anyhow - back to cars - looks like I'll be keeping the current ones for a while then as nothing fills me with more dread than the thought of sitting in an autonomous car...

[Breezy_Pete]

Old news, as demonstrated by  root-toot's links.

[lol-lol]

31 minutes ago, skomaz said:

 

Blimey - you've changed your tune on Brexit???   never thought I'd hear that admission!

 

Anyhow - back to cars - looks like I'll be keeping the current ones for a while then as nothing fills me with more dread than the thought of sitting in an autonomous car...

 

BREXIT is now split milk but also a gift that keeps on giving in terms of a massive boost to turnover of international logistics companies and the employees, manna from heaven, or from British companies trying to export and EU companies importing in to the UK.

 

Need to change the Octy next year but should be able to get a last vehicle without ISA.  

Ship has arrived in Bristol with over a thousand Long Range MG 5s  so might try and get one of those or the next shipload.  

[xman]

As @e-Roottoot points out, mandatory kit is mandatory. Personally I'm all for it. I am a law abiding citizen and anything that helps me stay within the law and avoid fines and penalty points is ok by me.

 

If only they could introduce a system to stop idiots modifying cars to make excessively loud noises and belch out all manner of black fumes and pollution

 

More EU mandatory kit coming

 

Edited 13 August, 2021 by xman

[xman]

24 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

BREXIT is now split milk 

 

Milk splitting

[Ootohere]

EV's are coming with all the gear and drivers really need to read manuals and get very familiar via social media / youtube or trial and error to use it safely.

Some of the stuff is only half cooked and a bit of a PITA on UK roads due to road types and markings.

 

Lots of the stuff is there early on vehicles because of upcoming regulations / legislation and is using Owners / Drivers as road test dummies.

VW Group seem to have some 'Safety Features' due to be mandatory that they have not got working very well or safely and looking at the Octavia Mk2 Section & the Superb Section might show examples of that.

They are actually sitting with peoples cars not safe to be on the road and meanwhile they owners / drivers have Loaners.

[lol-lol]

51 minutes ago, xman said:

 

Milk splitting

 

These firms that promise one stop shop for selling in to Europe ie single VAT registration and handling all the VAT returns etc well good luck to them.

 

It sounds more for parcel services and I am not sure that DHL and the like are worried and I think they will be doing something similar.

 

We are doing container loads and usually for Multi National Corporations so they will do it all internally but it is still a multi-billion Euro headache for them anyways.

 

We just do the customs movements ie export, import and Union Transit.  We do not get involved much directly in Road Freight as Air Freight and Container movement is much more our thing, much cleaner, oh and a bit of trains these days which I think will grow and grow both from China and from EU Inland Clearance Depots and UK inland clearance depots.

 

Devon police clocked an EU lorry doing 84 mph down Holden Hill on the A38, that is some kinetic energy.  

Edited 13 August, 2021 by lol-lol

[Ootohere]

Vids from 2019.

 

 

[chimaera]

17 hours ago, xman said:

So if I break down on a motorway I can sue the government?

No. If it's a system internal to the vehicle then it's up to you as the owner to ensure your vehicle is maintained and in good order; you may have recourse to the manufacturer of the vehicle or parts on it in the event of a breakdown but ultimately it's your vehicle, your problem.

 

ISA is a system that requires external roadside infrastructure and systems (that are not within the driver's ability to inspect or maintain, nor under the driver's control) to interact with the vehicle in order to control aspects of its operation independently of the driver, without the driver's knowledge or consent. And before you ask, no this is not the same as failure of traffic lights or other traffic control measures, as they rely on the driver's interpretation and action to have any effect on the car. ISA bypasses the driver and directly controls the vehicle.

 

My point is to ask whether the governments implementing this system are willing to assume responsibility for the operation of their part of the ISA infrastructure and any failures it might run into e.g. a car is forced down to a speed of 50 km/h on a motorway and gets rear-ended because it's suddenly going at less than half the speed of the traffic around it.

 

I have no doubt the system is engineered so that a complete failure of the roadside infrastructure would result in the vehicle system falling back to manual control by the driver, but the danger is that the roadside infrastructure would partly fail and give incorrect signals to vehicles: in this case the vehicle system sees a valid message arriving in and obeys it because it has no reason to think there's a problem, and the driver does not have the option to override it.

[Ootohere]

The UK Government can be trusted to have a fully operational system in place so that convoys of driver less HGV's other than in the lead unit can travel the roads with complete safety.

Giving  empty lanes and junctions as they bring all other traffic to a halt in the inside lanes as they barrel along past delivering urgent goods to London.

 

5G and even 6G technology all over the UK which still does not have overall GPS coverage or even digital radio reception.

Edited 13 August, 2021 by e-Roottoot

[xman]

 

18 minutes ago, chimaera said:

 

My point is to ask whether the governments implementing this system are willing to assume responsibility for the operation of their part of the ISA infrastructure and any failures it might run into e.g. a car is forced down to a speed of 50 km/h on a motorway and gets rear-ended because it's suddenly going at less than half the speed of the traffic around it.

 

Steer clear of smart motorways then.

 

If it depends on the traffic sign recognition (TSR) fitted to my Superb then I would end up going 20mph everywhere near a built up area as it's better at reading road signs down the side roads to my left rather than the signs straight ahead.

 

If someone rear ends you its the responsibility of the person hitting you from behind. (Unless you consented of course )

 

Of course you missed the bit that says it can be overriden, just push your right foot down, just like ACC or PCC.

 

 

Edited 13 August, 2021 by xman

[chimaera]

1 minute ago, xman said:

 

Steer clear of smart motorways then.

 

If it depends on the traffic sign recognition (TSR) fitted to my Superb then I would end up going 20mph everywhere near a built up area as it's better at reading road signs down the side roads to my left rather than the signs straight ahead.

 

If someone rear ends you its the responsibility of the person hitting you from behind. (Unless you consented of course )

 

Of course you missed the bit that says it can be overriden, push your right foot down.

e.g. a car is forced down to a speed of 50 km/h on a motorway and gets rear-ended

No, the point of the system is that it prevents you from exceeding the posted speed limit. You can't travel faster than the system allows. Over-rides seem to be an option only in the early stages of roll-out to allow for transition.

 

I had a feeling you might deliberately misconstrue the point in relation to rear-ending: my point is that the system could fail in a manner that would force the vehicle's speed down to something much lower than the traffic around it, leaving other cars no time to react to avoid it. As an engineer I look at systems like this from the point of view of how they could fail and how that might be problematic. The fundamental point is that a system out of the driver's control is now controlling the vehicle: is the owner of that system willing to accept the liability that comes with that?

[xman]

How is your scenario any different to someone breaking down, runs out of petrol or a car going into limp mode, or an EV suddenly slowing when its battery management panics?

 

It is called Intelligent Speed Assist - I see no mention that it can't be overriden or take ultimate control away from the driver

 

 

Edited 13 August, 2021 by xman

[Ootohere]

It can only affect vehicles with the systems installed,  so many of the 30 million plus UK vehicles still without the new tech will be trucking about for a few more decades.

[KenONeill]

2 hours ago, chimaera said:

No, the point of the system is that it prevents you from exceeding the posted speed limit. You can't travel faster than the system allows. Over-rides seem to be an option only in the early stages of roll-out to allow for transition.

 

I had a feeling you might deliberately misconstrue the point in relation to rear-ending: my point is that the system could fail in a manner that would force the vehicle's speed down to something much lower than the traffic around it, leaving other cars no time to react to avoid it. As an engineer I look at systems like this from the point of view of how they could fail and how that might be problematic. The fundamental point is that a system out of the driver's control is now controlling the vehicle: is the owner of that system willing to accept the liability that comes with that?

And, as a safety engineer, I do the same thing, but try to assign probabilities to the failure modes.

[lol-lol]

3 hours ago, e-Roottoot said:

It can only affect vehicles with the systems installed,  so many of the 30 million plus UK vehicles still without the new tech will be trucking about for a few more decades.

 

I am going to drive a Lotus 7, "I am not a number I am a free man"

[Ootohere]

Rory doing a public service.

Of course cars built in the UK for the UK or Export will get built in the same as cars built in other countries and imported.

 

 

 

 

 

[xman]

Some BS from Rory there, if a car sees (erroneously) a 90 mph speed limit sign in a 30mph zone, and the ACC is on, it will accelerate to 90mph! Really??

 

After telling us it will be all about nagging us rather than taking control.

 

 

Edited 14 August, 2021 by xman

[xman]

Volvo made a good first move by limiting its new cars to 111.8 mph. Doubt its made any difference to sales.

Next should be to limit all new cars in UK to say 77mph (max motorway limit +10%) Lorries do fine with speed limiters so why not cars. We'd all soon complain if HGVs were passing us at 70+mph.

 

Then make it work like the speed limiters fitted to lots of cars with option to make the speed limit adaptable (from gps/tsr) which also means some kind of nav system is required.

 

Edited 14 August, 2021 by xman