Skoda Fabia Vrs CAVE. Interference or not

[Crasher]

I had been through too much trauma by then to gamble any more, the unit cost us £5k ish with discount and no VAT, currently the unit, 03C 100 092 DX, is £7976.40 retail inc VAT, a bit of an increase in 3 years never mind 7!

 

@toot I would not touch one of those cheap fleaBay recons with yours, never mind my own…😒

[thomasaspin]

On 03/03/2023 at 13:56, Crasher said:

 

Take a seat, this is a long one! In February 2020 we had a Scirocco come in with the CAVD version, it was smoking and misfiring so I gave it to one of my lads to do a compression test which showed two cylinders down so he dropped the sump, chain cover and chain system off and pulled the head, when the cam carrier was off we found one of the fingers out of position and it had mangled the inlet cam and the carrier, it was clear it had been apart before. He flipped it over and filled the chambers with brake cleaner and all the exhaust valves leaked so he stripped it and took it to the engineers for exhaust guides, vales, skim and pressure test. I noticed the bores were so shiny you could do your makeup in them so whilst the head was away we got permission to pull them and hone the bores plus fit new rings and shells but when we put the pistons on the bench our mobile visiting engineer noticed the ring land of two had gone, and I mean gone, no trace of the missing metal!

 

So, I ordered a set of Nural pistons, KS bearings, Elring gaskets, head and rod bolts, Febi lifters, fingers, oil cooler, FAI timing chain kit, oil pump and inlet cam plus second hand cam carrier (I know, I know) and he built the engine back up. Plugs out primed and then started, it sounded like a skeleton masturbating in a biscuit tin and a quick check showed barely 2 Bar oil pressure when revved, sod all at idle. Yes it had a new VVT hub, solenoid and oil tube as well!

 

The only thing we could think of was the oil jets as we had removed them for honing and reused them, sump off, new jets (difficult to do with the crank in the way and ran it up... no difference, so we dropped the sump AGAIN and decided the KS bearings felt sloppy so we fitted Glyco, built it up, no difference...FFS! We put the original pump on, again, no difference. Then the world went into meltdown and everyone except me and my business partner went on a three month holiday on full pay as we topped it up out of our own pockets.

 

As there wasn't much work in (thank God for our eBay shops) I pulled the whole engine out and gutted it on the bench, I found the block was badly warped so our engineers decked and hot tanked it, then I meticulously inspected it, core plugs out, and smoke tested for leaks. I built it back up with a genuine new oil pump, Glyco bearings, the new jets, new bolts, the new pistons, engineer checked and polished crank which I Plastigauge checked the clearances on and brand new FULL genuine head with new lifters and fingers again plus a new genuine cam carrier with the pervious cam setup and basically built it as I always do, no compromises except I didn't paint the block as normal... even a new Febi rear crank oil seal; literally the only original parts of the base unit were the cam chain cover, bare block, crank and rods but all meticulously cleaned and checked.

 

I fitted and primed it and when I started it it sounded awful and STILL had no oil pressure, I was baffled, never experienced anything like it in 42 year of building VAG engines. I just gave up, ordered a new base unit from TPS and ****ed it off, I calculated that cockup cost us £25k and just at the worst possible time.

 

What REALLY hurt is to get the exchange the engine had to go back but we did put the original head and cam carrier on plus the old oil pump. One interesting point with the new engine was it cam with a brand new block and recon head but also a new timing chain cover and this had been a suspect during build but I could not see a fault.

That’s an absolute nightmare that I would of just stuck a second hand engine in and palmed it off 

[Crasher]

4 hours ago, thomasaspin said:

That’s an absolute nightmare that I would of just stuck a second hand engine in and palmed it off 

Customers car so I was duty bound to make it perfect no matter what the personal cost, the person he bought it from had it lashed up and palmed off on him.

[J.R.]

7 hours ago, Crasher said:

I had been through too much trauma by then to gamble any more, the unit cost us £5k ish with discount and no VAT, currently the unit, 03C 100 092 DX, is £7976.40 retail inc VAT, a bit of an increase in 3 years never mind 7!

 

@toot I would not touch one of those cheap fleaBay recons with yours, never mind my own…😒

 

+ 1.

[Ootohere]

I would not touch one of these supposedly refurbished engines with mine or any one else's barge pole but then i have never recommended anyone should.

(Sadly over the past years there have been Skoda / VW factory replacement like for like engines that went just the same way as the one they replaced.)

 

As to totally gubbed Twinchargers, there are plenty that have been on here looking for advice in the past decade that just got shot of them to WBAC or anyone else that would take them. The same cars have been going around and around and around the motor trade with lots of unfortunates ending up with them. 

 

2011 and that was not anything new as SEAT / VW knew the problems before the first vRS Mk2 Fabia went on sale in the UK.

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/213693-vrs-burning-oil

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/353149-fabia-mk2-vrs-14tsi-replacement-engines-replaced-how-many

 

 

Edited 4 March, 2023 by toot

[Crasher]

Yes, we sometimes get the same car come in with different owners or here of it going elsewhere as the garage rings us up for help.

[Ootohere]

Skoda Main Dealers had cars coming in that their employees passed off as using what could be expected at usual oil consumption when wrongly quoting that 1 litre in 1,000 miles was acceptable or even more oil than that.

 

There were those doing oil consumption tests that did not know the weight of a litre of oil and saying within tolerances & even those that sent cars with replacement engines out over filled or under filled.

 

It has been a ba-lls up from 2010 on with Skoda and Seat from 2009 and VW / Audi throughout.

The amount of the first cars in the UK that were rejected because of the oil use, these were just back out on sale then some had  engines rebuilt and short units, before base engine replacement started getting fitted had a lot to do with twinchargers being run until a Low Oil Level or Low Oil Pressure light came on and that might not be until the oil was more the 1/3 below capacity which was not that much on the first place.

Then also the one failing spark plug.

 

Rejected cars were just back into the trade and eventually might get the breather mod, the software update, the oil spray jet update or even a replacement engine and fingers crossed.

 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/339194-oil-consiumption-test-part-1

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/341062-cave-oil-consumption-new-fix-updated-two-days-ago-by-vag

 

 

......................

Official Oil Consumption tests were hopeless but even more if someone thought a litre of engine oil weighed 1,000 grams.

 

Edited 5 March, 2023 by toot

[Crasher]

And all this is in an hysterical chase for reducing CO2 tailpipe emissions, in reality the overall emissions are probably worse due to the amount of oil being burnt and the life of the cat (and G/DPF when fitted) is going to be significantly reduced.

[Ootohere]

Plenty owners that did get a Twincharger Engine replaced had to fight to get the Catalytic Converter replaced where one was needing replaced but the technician was not supporting the need to.

 

As it was with the VW Polo GTI 1.4 TSI & Audi A1 1.4 TFSI Twinchargers VW had it in a lower VED band from 2010 than the Ibiza or Fabia, then with the CTHE the Ibiza got reduced to the same as the VW & Audi and the Fabia stayed a band higher.

 

Funnily the Fabia Hatch had ballast added to the rear crash bar so that the Kerb weight showed as 5 kg heavier than the longer Estate car.

Even then it was still lighter than the Polo and the Ibiza on the first incorrect Official Weights and then the revised / honest weights later given. 

[sepulchrave]

2 hours ago, toot said:

Skoda Main Dealers had cars coming in that their employees passed off as using what could be expected at usual oil consumption when wrongly quoting that 1 litre in 1,000 miles was acceptable or even more oil than that.

 

There were those doing oil consumption tests that did not know the weight of a litre of oil and saying within tolerances & even those that sent cars with replacement engines out over filled or under filled.

 

It has been a ba-lls up from 2010 on with Skoda and Seat from 2009 and VW / Audi throughout.

The amount of the first cars in the UK that were rejected because of the oil use, these were just back out on sale then some had  engines rebuilt and short units, before base engine replacement started getting fitted had a lot to do with twinchargers being run until a Low Oil Level or Low Oil Pressure light came on and that might not be until the oil was more the 1/3 below capacity which was not that much on the first place.

Then also the one failing spark plug.

 

Rejected cars were just back into the trade and eventually might get the breather mod, the software update, the oil spray jet update or even a replacement engine and fingers crossed.

 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/339194-oil-consiumption-test-part-1

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/341062-cave-oil-consumption-new-fix-updated-two-days-ago-by-vag

 

 

......................

Official Oil Consumption tests were hopeless but even more if someone thought a litre of engine oil weighed 1,000 grams.

 

 

I calculate that as 295ml per thousand km, that's using 880g per litre as a reasonable datum.

 

 

[Ootohere]

Skoda /VW were using 856 gram a litre. 

Later when the newer test came in it was 857 grams.

 

If 3.6 litres was weighed if that much was drained at the start of a consumption test then that is 3,081.6 grams. 

 

Where the tech managed to have 3,643 grams from is their error.

As it is the members car did get a new engine once Skoda UK and the dealership had the error pointed out and the oil consumption correctly checked.

 

 

Edited 5 March, 2023 by toot

[Ragadyman]

Update.

 

6 valves touched pistons, no visible bend in valves (chunkie buggers) better test next weekend.

 

crank needs grind (spun bearing) so will send off this week.

 

so in all I will,

 

grind crank ( new bearings)

piston rings

timing chain kit

potential oil pump replace

anything else I find also

 

 

[Mickmartin]

On 05/03/2023 at 21:10, Ragadyman said:

Update.

 

6 valves touched pistons, no visible bend in valves (chunkie buggers) better test next weekend.

 

crank needs grind (spun bearing) so will send off this week.

 

so in all I will,

 

grind crank ( new bearings)

piston rings

timing chain kit

potential oil pump replace

anything else I find also

 

 

 

I know its a bit more money but a lot les hassle when you have the engine stripped, Would you not replace some of the revised CTHE parts ie the oil jets/squirters of your planning to keep the car.

[Ragadyman]

48 minutes ago, Mickmartin said:

 

I know its a bit more money but a lot les hassle when you have the engine stripped, Would you not replace some of the revised CTHE parts ie the oil jets/squirters of your planning to keep the car.

Yes, I need to go back through the paperwork to see if anything has been done to the engine previously ( full service history). Also I need to do more research on parts to upgrade as I’m learning all the way.

 

turns out crank is knackered so I’ve sourced another.

 

im kinda thinking this engine survived 100,000 miles so if I replace all the wearing parts it should be good for another 100,000.🤷🏼‍♂️

[sepulchrave]

A knackered crank is usually symptomatic of oil starvation, make sure you get to the bottom of the cause of all this damage rather than just replacing everything and blithely expecting everything to be ok.

[Ragadyman]

48 minutes ago, sepulchrave said:

A knackered crank is usually symptomatic of oil starvation, make sure you get to the bottom of the cause of all this damage rather than just replacing everything and blithely expecting everything to be ok.

Agreed, I will test the oil pump and oil ways, I guess that’s all I can do.🤷🏼‍♂️ if oil pumps round the engine I think that’s all I can do.

 

[Crasher]

On 09/03/2023 at 15:48, Ragadyman said:

 if oil pumps round the engine I think that’s all I can do.

 

 

That's what I thought, how wrong I was...

[Ragadyman]

10 minutes ago, Crasher said:

 

That's what I thought, how wrong I was...

Do you know of con rod comparability on vw engines??

mine is 03CD ( difficult to find and expensive)

iDo you know of another part number that is the same??

[Crasher]

What did it do, spin a shell? 03C 198 401 D, £1134.60 does seem a lot for a set of rods but they are used in a huge range of VAG group engines from 2006>2018 such as CAVA, D, E, CTHA, D, CAXA, CNWA, CTKA, CTHD, CKMA and more. It would be unusual for VAG to make the same part with two part numbers at vastly different prices. What really made me want to cry was the old unit going back for exchange with a perfect crank, rods, pistons and genuine new oil pump but the surcharge was too much to keep them but I did keep the full new genuine head and put the original back on.

[sepulchrave]

3 hours ago, Ragadyman said:

Do you know of con rod comparability on vw engines??

mine is 03CD ( difficult to find and expensive)

iDo you know of another part number that is the same??

 

Blimey, it'd be a lot cheaper to buy a set of aftermarket forged conrods, better too.

[thomasaspin]

You can buy forged rods for less than £500 

[sepulchrave]

In fact, if I were rebuilding that engine I'd definitely use aftermarket forged rods and pistons and I'd get the whole lot dynamically balanced, the block chemically cleaned and glaze busted, new oil pump, camchain and tensioner.

If you're gonna build, always build better.

[J.R.]

19 hours ago, Crasher said:

 

That's what I thought, how wrong I was...

I thought immediately of you.

 

As long as the oil flows is a fallacy, it needs a minimum pressure to create a hydrodynamic films seperating the crankshaft from the bearings, for pressure it needs resistance to flow, there are several restriction points in an engine be they fixed drillings, metered hole sizes in gaskets or hollow dowels with metered bores especially to restrict oilflow to the cylinder head and in your case quite possibly something in the timing chain case to restrict flow to the variable cam timing actuators, another possibility is the piston cooling jets if they were the wrong size either through incompatibility or incorrect manufacture.

 

Other than leaving out a metering dowel and paying scrupulous attention to oil passage hole sizes in gaskets you have precious little chance of preventing the problem and equally slim chances of finding the lack of restriction afterwards.

 

Pattern part gaskets are often the cause of pressure drop.

[sepulchrave]

https://www.all-stars-motorsport.com/en/engine/14270-je-forged-pistons-for-polo-6r-gti-ibiza-6j-cupra-fabia-vrs-14-tsi-180-36332x-2000000093956.html#/bore-765mm

 

Killer price, killer quality.

 

https://www.speedingparts.co.uk/p/model-specific/vag-audi-seat-skoda-vw/14l-16v-tsi-ea111-blg-cava-cavd-caxa/zrp-conrod-kit-vag-14l-tsi-ea111.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiA6rCgBhDVARIsAK1kGPL2gdlCtokSlkQRO1mjqPGkYJEnab_dftrtRZG60IPpPtCvXUd1G18aAnraEALw_wcB#

 

Extraordinarily cheap, prolly Chinese but stronger than standard so...

[Ragadyman]

4 hours ago, sepulchrave said:

In fact, if I were rebuilding that engine I'd definitely use aftermarket forged rods and pistons and I'd get the whole lot dynamically balanced, the block chemically cleaned and glaze busted, new oil pump, camchain and tensioner.

If you're gonna build, always build better.

Agreed.

got crank

got con rod

both go to engineering workshop to be tested and measured.

oil pump ordered/valve stem seals ordered

Exhaust valves lapped(inlet ok)

 

Oil pressure is my worry., still thinking about it. Might T in a gauge.

 

should have all parts by next weekend.