Buttons, Knobs or Touch Screens

[FrankNicklin]

As with most manufacturers, the move to touch screens has bought about more concerns about safety.  I like tech and gadgets, but there comes a point that function over design can severely impact on driver safety. Reaching for a knob or button gives immediate feed back. Rotational position or on off switches are easily felt whilst driving, but the move to all things touch I do feel a step too far.

 

My Octavia SEL has climate control with which I can fully control the air flow, heat etc via buttons and knobs on the dash. I also have the same ability to control this via the Amundsen head unit through the menu on the climate controls. From here I can control exactly the same functions but it is far less intuitive. There is no feed back and never will be on touch screens, you cannot "feel" the icon you are touching so in many cases your eyes wonder over to the console to make sure you are touching the function you need.

 

The New Golf has done away with buttons altogether and Tesla have been pioneers in all things touch for virtually every function within the car.

 

It appears to me that one tech advance is being employed to counter the tech advances in other areas.

 

Because we now have to look at the head unit to control functions we now have lane assist and collision avoidance to stop us crashing and drifting between lanes whilst we adjust the settings in the car.

 

 

 

[Ootohere]

I got the Electric Car i have because of the manual buttons and no real need to use a touch screen.

 

My left hand is not disabled and my fingers can operate buttons, but i am right handed and drive right hand drive cars.

 

If i drove a left hand drive car and used my right hand to use a touch screen that would be pretty easy.

As it is using my left hand to hit the screen exactly as i want is 'hit or miss'. 

I set stuff that needs setting when parked or stopped and even then i reach the screen with my finger on my  right hand.

 

PS

Touch screens can give feed back with a vibration like touch buttons on the new VW EV's have on the steering wheel controls / touch buttons / areas.

 

Voice controls need sorting out as well.

 

Interior and controls by Fisher Price.

 

 

If Porsche lend me a new car long term i think i might get used to the touch screen.

 

 

Edited 16 March, 2021 by e-Roottoot

[FrankNicklin]

Vibration feedback does not guarantee you have the right icon, granted you feel something, but it is not the same as physical buttons and switches.

[cheezemonkhai]

Personally I think it's a terrible idea and I believe there have been court cases in Germany, where the driver lost (Details on the below thread)

Lots of discussion on this thread.

 

 

I've also moved the thread to somewhere which will probably get a wider audience

[Westbury63]

Good post. I agree, there is just far too much tech in cars. Knobs, buttons, dials, switches and levers have worked since the car was invented. They work because they are tactile, we know what we are touching. A flat panel doesn't replace any of them.

 

Call me jaded, but cars have not moved very far forward in real terms in the last 15yrs or so. Tech is being thrown at them in an attempt to sell something new. People like to buy new, and it looks 'modern'. Not fit for purpose from a safety perspective IMHO and I have major reservations about longevity and reliability.

Edited 16 March, 2021 by Westbury63
Spelling!

[Gaz]

Give me knobs and buttons any day of the week, and I agree there are safety issues.

 

I also find it very frustrating that however clean and dry my hands are, the screen will end up with lilac/purple paw prints on it that I then feel the need to clean off.

 

Gaz

[Ttaskmaster]

Touch screens in general just suck. It's one main reason I won't be buying an EV any time soon, and every single day it gives me reasons to hate Smartphones.

They are brilliant when used alongside physical controls, but as the sole interface method, they just make using anything an utter ballache. So much for tech enhancing our lives.

 

 

[cheezemonkhai]

Here are the court cases I posted in the other thread:

 

A bit older:

https://www.driving.co.uk/news/dashboard-screens-risk-drivers-lives/
 

More recent and interesting:

https://www.theweek.co.uk/98481/are-in-car-touchscreens-safe-to-use-while-driving
 

German court decided a touchscreen alternative to a physical control is a driver distraction very recently:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53666222

[FrankNicklin]

1 hour ago, e-Roottoot said:

I got the Electric Car i have because of the manual buttons and no real need to use a touch screen.

 

My left hand is not disabled and my fingers can operate buttons, but i am right handed and drive right hand drive cars.

 

If i drove a left hand drive car and used my right hand to use a touch screen that would be pretty easy.

As it is using my left hand to hit the screen exactly as i want is 'hit or miss'. 

I set stuff that needs setting when parked or stopped and even then i reach the screen with my finger on my  right hand.

 

PS

Touch screens can give feed back with a vibration like touch buttons on the new VW EV's have on the steering wheel controls / touch buttons / areas.

 

Voice controls need sorting out as well.

 

Interior and controls by Fisher Price.

 

 

If Porsche lend me a new car long term i think i might get used to the touch screen.

 

That low down touch screen on the Porsche means you have no chance of keeping your eyes on the road whist making any adjustments. Cannot think or a worse position to have such an interface.

 

Edited 16 March, 2021 by FrankNicklin

[J.R.]

I only have vision in one eye, its very hard to position something relative to something else, a screwdriver into a screwhead for instance, I find it very difficult to type on a phone screen without making loads of mistakes, everytime I do a full stop I end up erasing the last character etc.

 

And that is with something directly in front of me not to one side (my blind side) whilst trying to keep an eye on the road at the same time, even when I am stopped I find it very very hard to type an address into the satnav. And yet I can touch type on a keyboard like this laptop, a tablette I cannot.

 

100+ years of study and experience of ergonomics, tactile feedback switchgear and above all safety have been thrown away to try to sell cars on gimmicks and connectivity to the smartphone generation.

[Lady Elanore]

Anything but touch screens. I hate them with a passion. I don't have gesture control, but once they get this working it may be OK, well as long as the manufacturers agree on a common language for the gestures. After all a gesture needs no translation in theory. Buttons, sliders, knobs, wheels and stalks, bring em on  

[J.R.]

Something about touch screens does not like my fingers especially the ones in public places, store check-outs, information screens etc.

 

I'm ashamed to admit it but I'm sure that many will relate to it, my frustration at the automated check in at Eurotunnel one day got the better of me and I ended up with bleeding knuckles and them a broken screen

[Ootohere]

@FrankNicklin I think those with a Porsche EV are supposed to have a co-pilot. 

& the low touchscreen is for setting things up before driving.

While driving there is enough on the wheel and the stalks to deal with and a screen in front and one to the side of that for info.

 

Heads up displays can deal rather well with the stuff you might want to know right in your vision like the speed.

Which gear you are in not necessary to know. 

(A nice pair of slacks & loafers will do.)

 

Left hand drive car, but he shows using his left hand.....   So maybe left handed.

 

 

Edited 16 March, 2021 by e-Roottoot

[Lady Elanore]

I have head up displays and they are great, unless you wear polarised sunglasses in which case they are not great, in fact they are invisible more or less  

[FrankNicklin]

1 hour ago, e-Roottoot said:

@FrankNicklin I think those with a Porsche EV are supposed to have a co-pilot. 

& the low touchscreen is for setting things up before driving.

While driving there is enough on the wheel and the stalks to deal with and a screen in front and one to the side of that for info.

 

Heads up displays can deal rather well with the stuff you might want to know right in your vision like the speed.

Which gear you are in not necessary to know. 

(A nice pair of slacks & loafers will do.)

 

Left hand drive car, but he shows using his left hand.....   So maybe left handed.

 

 

 

But its there and likely to be used by the driver. You cannot get away from the fact the touch screen controls need considerable more concentration and are in positions requiring you to take your eyes off the road.  

[Westbury63]

1 hour ago, J.R. said:

100+ years of study and experience of ergonomics, tactile feedback switchgear and above all safety have been thrown away to try to sell cars on gimmicks and connectivity to the smartphone generation.

 

101% agreed.

 

I read an AutoExpress mag the other day with a car group test, and they now dedicate and entire page to comparing the infotainment systems! For flips sake, its a car with oily bits, not a gadget ! Ergonomics are taking big steps backwards.   

[J.R.]

Just look at the thread titles in the "All Activity" page of this forum compared to say 2 years ago and you will see that those of us who are interested in and concerned about their vehicle as a reliable and safe mode of transport are now well in the minority.

 

And look at the car adverts as well although there you will have to go back 20 years to find any advertising relative to the vehicle and not "lifestyle" aspirations, the last couple of years its been nothing but connectivity, infotainment and gadgets.

Edited 16 March, 2021 by J.R.

[Ootohere]

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/489549-speed-i-items-to-be-fitted-to-all-new-cars-by-2022

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/488677-how-did-cars-end-up-with-so-much-tech-fitted

 

 

@FrankNicklin Luckily there are still manufacturers that are KISS or going back to things that way.

There are plenty cars currently about new or used that can be keepers for the next 2 decades if people want to stay old school.

[Aspman]

Touch screens are a disaster and imho have no place in a car.

 

In a car you should be able to reach and adjust all common controls without taking your eyes off the road.

 

My car has two touch screens and the time taken to change your focus, then find the tiny little control on one of two panels, then get your finger to hover over it as you bounce along, then wait for whatever indication it makes that your change was sucessful just isn't safe.

 

In my old VRS almost everything had a button or a switch. I think that era of VAG car (2007) is really very hard to beat for a set of controls that makes sense and can be done without moving your eyes

[skomaz]

I'm certainly not a great fan of touchscreens but can see their place for less used elements.  The Swift has one for the radio and satnav but manual controls for the HAVC and for turning the driver assistance features off and on.  It works reasonably well (Big contact patches to hit) but fortunately the  radio etc. can also be controlled by buttons and voice, the latter working pretty well really and managing to understand my 'Yorkshire' accent...

 

Overall I reckon the above is a pretty decent combination but would hate touch only!

[cheezemonkhai]

The MK3 Octavia has touch screen for radio, with steering wheel controls plus a volume/station turn/press button.

The other things are traditional buttons/knobs, which can also be set through the touchscreen if required.

 

Going only touchscreen, is definately something I won't do, at least not without hepatic feedback and even then it would need to be good.

[FrankNicklin]

5 minutes ago, cheezemonkhai said:

The MK3 Octavia has touch screen for radio, with steering wheel controls plus a volume/station turn/press button.

The other things are traditional buttons/knobs, which can also be set through the touchscreen if required.

 

Going only touchscreen, is definately something I won't do, at least not without hepatic feedback and even then it would need to be good.

Haptic feedback will only tell you if you are on an icon, not which icon or the value of the settings. The addition of gesture controls (non touch) is even worse as it is less accurate and has limited capability. It’s all gimmicky interfaces that don’t address the real issue of safety.

[cheezemonkhai]

27 minutes ago, FrankNicklin said:

Haptic feedback will only tell you if you are on an icon, not which icon or the value of the settings. The addition of gesture controls (non touch) is even worse as it is less accurate and has limited capability. It’s all gimmicky interfaces that don’t address the real issue of safety.

 

You are correct to a point.

 

Hepatics can be well implimented, such that certain buttons will pulse at different speeds/vibrations. A bit like morse code for the finger tips.

If you for example put the two heater dials either side, then a recirculate button in the middle, you can set the vibrations to be a specific set for recirculate and a variation if it's on/off.

In terms of the on/off, the button colour can also change, much like a tell tale on an existing car.

 

Personally I like physical buttons, with touch for complex stationary setting. The above I describe probably with a single central button would probably be acceptable to me also, as long as they don't put things like wipers etc on that system (Certain car manufacturer stand up).

 

The current non hepatic, purely visual screens are completely inappropriate and even with hepatics, they would have to get it so right before I'd consider it to be acceptable for me.

 

Gesture controls...

 

I wonder what gets assigned to one finger raised, two fingers raised, shaking a fist and an open fist being moved side to side. 

That could be quite ammusing.

Edited 17 March, 2021 by cheezemonkhai

[J.R.]

Those are the only sort of gestures that I could visualise, I guess I just dont understand gesture control, how on earth can you gesticulate to change complicated climate control settings or even simply turning up the heat on one side, the other or both, change the fan speed etc? Let alone all the other things that they ahve now done away with the switches & controls for?

[Aspman]

I'm sure they will claim that voice control is replacing many options and touch screens are only for backup.

However, I've yet to drive any car with an effective voice control system. And it's not just that I sound like an East coast farmer. SO has a proper posh English accent and neither the RR or her Newish mini are even remotely useful using voice.