(TL;DR - what replacement engine will I most likely get, and can I still soften the financial blow?)
 

Hi all,

so the unfortunate thing that seems to have happened to many others finally happened to me.

 

Car is a 2012 Fabia RS Combi, 153,000k, purchased second hand from a dealer in June last year 

 

Previously (3 months ago) the engine light came on. We took it into the VW dealer and they couldn’t find the fault, But said they thought it might be an emissions issue. After a few tanks of 100 octane and some autobahn driving off it went. 
 

fast forward to 3 days ago (dec 24) and I was driving down the autobahn at around 130-140km/h. Engine light starts blinking, so I slowed down, and then all of a sudden I lost power. Wobbled my way into a rest stop that was right nearby and called the ADAC.

 

ive gotten a call today from the VW dealer it’s been at - told me basically I need a new engine. My wife picked up the call and didnt get all the details about what was wrong, but I’m no mechanic and not going to argue it. I will speak to them tomorrow however and get some more details on what it was if that helps anyone here to help me out. 

 

My question really is - what sort of engine are they going to replace a 2012 with 150k on the clock. It’s surely not going to be a shiny new polo gti engine. Will it be a refurbished CAVE model? Or a mid decade polo gti engine? Or something else?

 

also, im assuming there’s no recourse due to age of the car and time since purchase, but if there is still some sort of way to lessen the blow to my bank account, I am all ears. 
 

many thanks in advance for the feedback 

Sorry to here this.

 

& sorry but i do not understand.

Who is replacing the engine and paying for it, are you paying ?

2 minutes ago, Roottootemoot said:

Sorry to here this.

 

& sorry but i do not understand.

Who is replacing the engine and paying for it, are you paying ?

So the VAG dealer that my car got towed to is handling it (I have the mobility guarantee so it went to the nearest dealer) - and unless I can find a loophole, I have a feeling that I’ll be paying (or sending it to the scrap heap) 😢

I doubt the warranty if any would cover that because of age of the car.

 

Ideally you would want a CTHE engine fitted, but having one of those new from a dealer would be most likely £6k+

 

Would probably better to break / sell the car or fit a good sceond hand engine, but I would not use a Dealer unless your very flush.

3 hours ago, UrbanPanzer said:

I doubt the warranty if any would cover that because of age of the car.

 

Ideally you would want a CTHE engine fitted, but having one of those new from a dealer would be most likely £6k+

 

Would probably better to break / sell the car or fit a good sceond hand engine, but I would not use a Dealer unless your very flush.

I guess I’ll get some quotes from them today and see what they say

 

I’m assuming any replacement would be a like for like in terms of power output  (I.e they’re not going to put in a 1.2L/77kw engine in)

 

with the cheap finance available at this time I’m almost considering going down the new car route and cutting my losses, as much as it pains me to let go of this beautiful car at only 150k on the clock 

A replacement re-finished CAVE base engine with the updates from VW, (oil Spray Jets) is under 3,500 Euro. That is with a 2 year VW Warranty when bought in the UK.

Ideally it would be a CTHE, but for some with a CAVE that got a CTHE replacement a ECU was required.

 

What has actually happened to your engine is going to matter, what parts are getting swapped over, and are you putting on a new water pump and belts.

Is the turbo OK, the Cat etc etc.

 

 

So called the workshop yesterday, but the mechanics were off for the Christmas break.

 

I'll get some more information for you @Roottootemoot tomorrow hopefully, and I can glean some more advice off you.

 

For anyone who's been down this road before, would you recommend (assuming its going to cost me the best part of 5000€, )

a) have the workshop rebuild the engine - the rest of the car is in great nick, brand new tyres that have run 100km in them, and extend the life of the car for another x amount of years

b) sell it off, and take advantage of all time low interest rates here in Germany and look at something similar but more family oriented, i.e a Seat Leon/Golf GTD Wagon/Passat 

 

I know its a personal thing, but I like hearing other opinions when trying to form my own

 

 

Many thanks

I assume it is 150,000 kilometres the engine had travelled and not miles. If miles, the engine has done a lot of miles around the block. Perhaps a donor engine from a crashed car could be the answer

 

Edited 29 December, 20196 yr by edbostan

You can have an engine rebuilt.  Or buy one already done.

  Main Dealers are nearly always just going to say that it needs a new engine, they are not going to do rebuilds.   That is unless they are having to pay for a Oil user they sold.

They are fitters.

 

It is nice to get a Running Twincharger engine, so rear crash damage not front.

Considering that over 20% of UK CAVE engines were rebuilt (rebuilds happened in the UK up until short engines were fitted, then Base engines were fitted)

Even replaced needed another replacement engines in some cases,  you do not want to buy a bad used one.

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/294051-cave-cthe-14tsi-just-reply-please-if-you-have-had-an-engine-replaced

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/353149-fabia-mk2-vrs-14tsi-replacement-engines-replaced-how-many

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/449229-new-engine-is-not-a-new-engine

 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/440772-nightmare-vrs-engine-replacement-needed

 

 

 

 

Always a tricky one whether to repair or replace.

 

Lets face it a new car is going to be similar or most likely more than a replacement engine........however a "used" replacement engine would be a viable option "if" you like the car which sounds like you do...

 

eg

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SKODA-FABIA-IBIZA-A1-A3-POLO-GTI-1-4-TSI-PETROL-ENGINE-code-CTHE-132kw-180bhp/124000648729?hash=item1cdf03be19:g:KP4AAOSwrXddMVvw

 

 

8 hours ago, UrbanPanzer said:

Always a tricky one whether to repair or replace.

 

Lets face it a new car is going to be similar or most likely more than a replacement engine........however a "used" replacement engine would be a viable option "if" you like the car which sounds like you do...

 

eg

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SKODA-FABIA-IBIZA-A1-A3-POLO-GTI-1-4-TSI-PETROL-ENGINE-code-CTHE-132kw-180bhp/124000648729?hash=item1cdf03be19:g:KP4AAOSwrXddMVvw

 

 

Just spoke to the workshop. They told me that they 'think' it's a problem with the valves, but they need to take the whole engine out to look at it properly @ 90€/hour. With replacing the valves, they quoted 2000€ including work. 

 

I have no idea whether that is good or not - thoughts?

To add to that, initially 7 hours work they want to charge

Is there a VW Specialist in your area.

One with not a greedy hourly rate and knowledge of Twinchargers.   That is where to go and talk with now and tell the Dealership to leave the car untouched.

I take it by now they have had a borescope in the plug holes to look.

If not then they have not done much so far.

 

With the Main Dealership If it was just the valves and a head needed then fair enough, but likely rings and scraper on the cylinder and they will want to fit a new engine and they have told you how much they want.

 

The head could come off and valves fitted, but your dealership want to remove the engine....

 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/445242-burnt-valve-engine-rebuilt

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/426905-2013-vrs-dead-any-advice

 

 

Edited 30 December, 20196 yr by Roottootemblowinootsoot

Yep, they did the borescope already and

said it’s most likely the Valves

 

Considering it will cost me 130€ to get it home (Broke down off the autobahn 70km away) I’m leaning toward just doing it. But the most likely bit worries me - and then once they replace the valves, what’s the actual cause. 
 

They offered us 200€ to scrap the car. Might be a fix and sell and keep as much money as possible 

The cause is the common cause and why VW Group discontinued the CAVE and introduced the CTHE but on early ones they still never got the Engine Management right.

One cylinder and the valves and the fueling, and bore wash, and single oiled plug getting cooked.

The oil breathers they modified and did a software patch for.

The oil spray jets that they changed and did a software patch for.

 The engines components, pistons, rings, scrapers, valves.

Wrong plugs as OEM at first and then even when changed. Crap design of the inlet manifold. Using long life oil and Super Unleaded fuel etc etc.

All the stuff up in the post with links to Lucifers Ulitimate Guide links pinned at top of page.

Edited 30 December, 20196 yr by Roottootemblowinootsoot

OK so really, really, really ****ty news.

 

The motor head is stuffed and needs replacing

The valves need replacing

The pistons are broken and need replacing

 

Costs including labour - 5,500€

 

If we don't proceed with the work, we pay the 810€ in labor that they've already done.

 

I'm not sure how to even process this, apart from the fact that it doesn't seem smart to proceed and rebuild the engine if its potentially going to do the same thing again. 😞 

What have they done, recovered the car, done a Borescope, removed the engine and taken the head off and looked. Plus storage....

Hardly comes to 810 Euro for 4 hours and VAT. 

 

Is the 5,500 euro the cost so far and fitting a New Base Engine from VW rather than them rebuilding it?

 

It should not do the same thing again when correctly rebuilt, ie refinished,

but better get the correct price of a Base Engine from VW fitted by them.  That is a Reburbished Engine from the VW Factory.

That should have the CTHE Components, the later oil spray jets, a new head and a 2 years Warranty on parts and labour when a VW Main Dealer fits it.

Edited 2 January, 20206 yr by Roottootemblowinootsoot

13 minutes ago, Roottootemblowinootsoot said:

What have they done, recovered the car, done a Borescope, removed the engine and taken the head off and looked. Plus storage....

Hardly comes to 810 Euro for 4 hours and VAT. 

 

Is the 5,500 euro the cost so far and fitting a New Base Engine from VW rather than them rebuilding it?

 

It should not do the same thing again when correctly rebuilt, ie refinished,

but better get the correct price of a Base Engine from VW fitted by them.  That is a Reburbished Engine from the VW Factory.

That should have the CTHE Components, the later oil spray jets, a new head and a 2 years Warranty on parts and labour when a VW Main Dealer fits it.

No, they've taken the whole engine out of the cavity to check it. 9 hrs in total so far.

 

With base model, does that mean the engine that the regular non-VRS cars get?

I'm not a whizz on engines, but I assume this means that the extra power comes from the turbocharger, not the engine.

How they can say 9 hours is beyond me.  That is paying for lots of time with a technician doing nothing.

 

A 'Base Engine' is what VW / Skoda have been fitting since 2012 under warranty when they stopped sending 'Short Units'  Block / Lower engine without a head./

 

It is a CAVE replacement to CTHE spec.

A engine for a 1.4 TSI / TFSI 132kw.

 

See here.  An engine getting replaced under warranty.

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/455901-no-record-of-new-engine-fitted-to-vrs-tsi-under-warranty

 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/451694-skoda-fabia-vrs-14-tsi

 

 

 

Edited 2 January, 20206 yr by Roottootemblowinootsoot

1 hour ago, Roottootemblowinootsoot said:

How they can say 9 hours is beyond me.  That is paying for lots of time with a technician doing nothing.

 

A 'Base Engine' is what VW / Skoda have been fitting since 2012 under warranty when they stopped sending 'Short Units'  Block / Lower engine without a head./

 

It is a CAVE replacement to CTHE spec.

A engine for a 1.4 TSI / TFSI 132kw.

 

See here.  An engine getting replaced under warranty.

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/455901-no-record-of-new-engine-fitted-to-vrs-tsi-under-warranty

 

 

I'm going to call them back this arvo or early tomorrow and speak to them - they've just told my wife that they wouldn't put a base model in as it takes too much extra wiring and mucking around under the hood. So they'd put in another like for like engine (god knows where they'd get that from - and still havent given a price)

 

Just so I know what I'm dealing with when I talk to the mechanic - is this a problem that manifests over a long period before coming to a head, or can it happen over the space of 100-200km of city of driving, from everything functioning perfectly to breaking?

 

We had our car in at our local VW dealer around 300km ago for an inspection as the engine light kept coming on. They managed to turn it off, but said they'd have to charge us a lot more money for further diagnostics if it happened again. After that, I was still seeing a bit of black smoke around city driving, and then this. It almost seems to me as if the mechanics were lazy the first time around, and have ignored problems that should have been fixed in the first place.

16 hours ago, KombiVRS said:

I'm going to call them back this arvo or early tomorrow and speak to them - they've just told my wife that they wouldn't put a base model in as it takes too much extra wiring and mucking around under the hood. So they'd put in another like for like engine (god knows where they'd get that from - and still havent given a price)

 

Just so I know what I'm dealing with when I talk to the mechanic - is this a problem that manifests over a long period before coming to a head, or can it happen over the space of 100-200km of city of driving, from everything functioning perfectly to breaking?

 

We had our car in at our local VW dealer around 300km ago for an inspection as the engine light kept coming on. They managed to turn it off, but said they'd have to charge us a lot more money for further diagnostics if it happened again. After that, I was still seeing a bit of black smoke around city driving, and then this. It almost seems to me as if the mechanics were lazy the first time around, and have ignored problems that should have been fixed in the first place.

Seriously starting to think these guys at VW are criminals.

 

The car broke on the 24th, and we were given a loan car that day. Mobility Guarantee gives you 3 days with the car for free. The car is half way between my house and Bremen - so about 50mins drive away, and so I've organised to return it first thing tomorrow morning so I can get the train back home. They want to charge us 1200€ total for the work (810€) and car hire (390€) for a Skoda Fabia 1,0TSi. Their schedule has been

 

24th - Open 

25th - Closed

26th - Closed

27th - Open

28th - Open but no mechanics 

29th - Closed

30th - Open

31st - Closed (New Years Eve)

1st - Closed

2nd - Open

3rd(Today) - Open.

 

So there, I can only make out 2 days that we've had the car outside the guarantee that any possible work could have been done, and they want to charge us 390€?

I never want to deal with the VW-Audi group again. This makes me furious. I'd love to know my legal rights here in Germany - if they are being so aggressive with a hire car fee, i can only imagine they've been pretty uncooperative in their efforts to fix our car and find a good resolution to the situation. Certainly charging 5,500€ inc. labour to give new pistons, valves and a head without actually addressing the problem is negligent and money gouging in itself

 

What a joke

So got the verdict back from Skoda Germany - they won't replace the engine as they say the car is too old. Not sure I accept that. 

I've written an email in response - if anyone has time over the next day or so, could you have a skim through it before I send it, and say if I've said anything that needs to be changed (isnt factual, etc) or could be added in?

 

Many thanks in advance.

 

Quote

 

Dear Skoda/Volkswagen,

 

First of all, may I excuse myself for replying to your email in English. However, given Skoda is an international company, as is the Volkswagen-Audi Group, one would expect that communication in the global language is expected.

 

May I firstly express my disappointment that I had to learn of the decision for Skoda to refuse to help with the co-payment for the service of my car through my sister in law, xxx xxx. Yes, the car is registered in her name. However, I would expect that if you have asked me to provide authority from Miriam to speak on her behalf on the car, then you would have contacted me directly once a decision had been made.

 

That aside, I would like to discuss with you the decision that your company has come to, why I disagree with it, and my proposed resolution.

 

The official decision I heard through my sister in law, xxx, was that the age of the car meant that nothing could be done in terms of a co-payment from Skoda in terms of fixing the motor.

 

This in itself I find problematic, as age of the car has nothing to do with the problems faced with this motor.

 

Since the release of the 1.4L Twin Charged CAVE engine (2010-2012), over 20% of engines in the UK had to be replaced due to cracked piston heads, melted pistons, high oil usage, and other faults that caused a loss of power to the engine.This occurred on the Polo Gti, the SEAT Ibiza Cupra and the Skoda Fabia vRS. These were found to be caused by the following:

 - Weak and cracking piston rings

 - Incorrect Engine mapping/software

 - Narrow spray pattern of the injectors, creating an incomplete burn, and build up on the piston surface

 - Faulty coil packs on the 2010-11 engines

 - Engine running lean when not under boost to meet emissions regulations

 

So already, we have 5 faults that have directly lead to valve and piston damage - the exact same problems my car is facing.

 

Our car was serviced middle of last year at Auto xxx in xxx, Hamburg, after the engine light was showing and black smoke was being emitted from our exhaust. The technician ran a diagnostic, turned the light off and said we 'may' want to check it again. 

 

Knowing of all these problems (which Skoda is well aware of - and faced a class action lawsuit in the UK over), I find it incredible that Skoda can come to me and say "The car is too old/travelled too far, so we can't do anything". This is a top of the line model, has been driven mostly in the city (so at low boost), and one would expect that at this age, cracked pistons and valves, and a total engine replacement would not be needed.

 

Even though Skoda is well aware of these problems, and changed from a CAVE to a CTHE engine in 2012, as well as refitting all faulty CAVE engines in that time, it is not good enough that I am being told that it is not the fault of Skoda. These are known problems with the engine. This is not caused by misuse. This is caused by poor design.

 

I would like to discuss the costs of getting this car back on the road and running, all whilst bearing in mind that the Volkswagen Group made a gross profit of €9,0b in the first half of 2019 (Source: Volkswagen Newsroom, July 2019) and Skoda itself had a new cash flow of €980m in the first half of 2019 (Source: Skoda Storyboard)

 

Given the financial clout of Volkswagen and Skoda, I feel that solving a problem that you know exists would be a good case of PR and goodwill, especially in the case of a young family, who has had their car engine die on them of no fault of their own.

 

With this in mind, I would like to initiate the proposal that Skoda refit the base CTHE engine that was fitted in all Fabia/Polo/Ibiza models that had the CAVE issues at no cost to me, the customer. I am not interested in having the current CAVE engine rebuilt, as it will not solve the problems listed above. Of course, Autohaus xxx is its own business, and I, the owner, would be happy to pay the labor costs associated with the engine refit.

 

I am not asking for a brand new engine to be re-fitted into my car. I am asking for a base model engine of similar miles, but of the CTHE variety to be replaced into my car at no cost. This would both ensure that these problems did not continue into the future, but also that this car did not need to go to the wreckers/landfill, and promote some sort of environmental sustainability, which in this day and age is increasingly important.

 

Failing a mediation on some sort of favourable terms, I think it would be safe to say that I would not be looking to buy a new car in the future with any member of the Volkswagen-Audi group. Whilst I agree that it would hardly make a dent in your profits, neither would replacing a known faulty engine out of goodwill.

 

 

Edited 18 January, 20206 yr by KombiVRS

VW Group / Skoda dealerships in the UK have no problem quoting to replace TSI engines in 2010/11 cars.

51 minutes ago, Roottootemblowinootsoot said:

VW Group / Skoda dealerships in the UK have no problem quoting to replace TSI engines in 2010/11 cars.

 

Germans will always be Germans it seems. Tight as a ducks butt.

 

Is everything I wrote factual? I don't want them to be able to pick a hole in my email. But I can't sit here and accept that a known fault needs to be paid for in full by me, regardless of age.

well written imo 👍